200 4T with 221cc kit

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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby VCS » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:53 pm

ChrisElliott72 wrote:All I'm after is for the scooter to be able to sit comfortably at 70mph for longer runs with a little bit more if needed for short bursts.



Hi Chris,

I´m looking for that level of performance too.
On July 6 my LML will be at the service for regular maintenance (now with 7200kms) plus checking the kit, carb and exhaust, just to make sure nothing´s wrong with my set up, before getting into the dark R&D phase...
i´ll post developments.

Cheers,
Vasco
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby tipper » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:51 pm

My LML has only ever hit the rev limiter on a dyno. On the road it will never reach mostly to the gearing I think so getting rid of it is safe but also wont give you any extra performance. Its the timing alterations from the reedspeed cdi which give you the boost.

My new engine was meant to come with one but UPS lost it :(
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby ChrisElliott72 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:57 pm

Would changing the crank make any difference?
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby VCS » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Looks like my cylinder kit is nothing more than a stock LML 200 cylinder but with 69mm...
Would anyone confirm this info ?

I bought my LML second hand and when I asked the seller he handed me the Polini kit box with the original cylinder, piston, carb, etc...

I´m just trying to understand if my kit is as it should be, or there´s something wrong with what I bought.

If we look at the kit description (Sip) :

"The graphite lined bore guarantees minimal frictional values and thermal stability. The piston, which is produced using a high proportion of silicium, delivers a compression ratio of 10.3:1 with the omega shaped crown forming the perfect counterpart to the profile of the cylinder head. The specially produced stainless steel cylinder head gasket combined with the flourotechnopolymer helps lower the working temperature."

It doesn´t look like a stock LML 200 upgraded to 69mm.

:oops:
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby tipper » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:06 pm

There is a post here about the 165 kit,I am guessing it will have Polini stamped on it some where.

viewtopic.php?t=8378&p=109458

So the old owner has just bored out the stock barrel and fitted a poling piston ?
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby VCS » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:09 pm

tipper wrote:There is a post here about the 165 kit,I am guessing it will have Polini stamped on it some where.

viewtopic.php?t=8378&p=109458

So the old owner has just bored out the stock barrel and fitted a poling piston ?


I´m not sure. :? That´s the big question.
I can´t find any reference to Polini (stamped) in the cylinder. My mechanic (Oldscooter in Lisbon, LML dealer) told me the cylinder (kit Polini vs stock 200) is the same, no apparent differences. He searched for Polini references and couldn´t find them. Even the "B" letter is there, as all the stock cylinders from LML. And he thinks that might be the case, because the cylinder kit hit the market shortly after 200 launch... Probably they hadn´t time to do the R&D... it was easier for Polini to use the stock cylinder bored out to 69mm.

I´m not stating categorically Polini did it this way, I'm just trying to understand what I have in hands.

Now, I have a stock cylinder 200 + a Polini which probably is a stock bored out to 69mm (big question mark).
One original piston + kit piston
One original carb + Polini 22 (this one has the Polini lettering printed in the body).
And the kit boxes and instruction manuals from the cylinder kit and the carburetor 22mm, all Polini stamped (the boxes) made in Italy.

It´s a mystery... :?

Any help would be much appreciated. Many thanks.
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby VCS » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:24 pm

We´re working on the 2 valve retainers (replacing them), probably that´s the reason for traces of too much oil on the combustion chamber.
I haven´t decided yet what´s next.

1) staying with the cylinder 69mm + new polini piston (150Eur ; apparently, Polini does not sell piston rings) ;
2) return to the original cylinder + original piston = stock 200;
3) staying with the cylinder 69mm + new piston that fit there (not the polini or LML)

Anybody has an idea of which (good!) motorbike piston with 69mm could fit in the 200 cylinder ? I can´t find anything about it.
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby Oro » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:05 pm

head is THE bottleneck , valves needs to open longer . Cylinder alone is wasted money .
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby Oro » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:15 pm

Doesnt matter if it's polini or stock 200cc if the valve timing is not set to performance .
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby maddy7 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:13 am

The main problem with the LML is that they are set up for the dusty roads of India and are tuned to last in that environmental. On the flat with knowing mine tops out at between 65 and 68mph. That with the standard engine, original carb with a 92 jet, ram air filter, readspeed cdi, gianelli exhaust and the polini input gear. I also removed the sas completely.
I've not seen once of the 221 kits so I don't know if the valve timing should be set any different than standard. The cdi only alters the ignition timing I.e when the spark is delivered. The problem is the cylinder head is the same with the same size valves, inlet and exhaust ports. So unless that setup is able to deliver enough fuel and air without advancing the valve timing slightly you can't expect much better performance.
If you up jet but there isn't enough air in the mix you are wasting your time. The up shot is you need the right combination of fuel, air and ignition timing to get the best performance. You'll only get that either by spending lots of time or getting it on a dyno.
I've not had enough time to tinker with my setup but I do think there is more potential in the standard engine buy playing with the jets and ignition timing on a dyno.
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby ChrisElliott72 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:21 am

Cheers for the input Maddy.

Dyno it is. I've been putting it off but know it is the only way to get the true results / performance out of the scooter.

I was waiting until after Bridlington to get it booked in and am going to look into doing just that now.

Does anyone know of any decent dyno places in the North East / North of England?
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby ricalnic » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:38 pm

Check out scooterotica, good online forum and Dyno facility, they''re over in Ripon. Give them a call first, as most of their work is on 2 stroke
you can only ever have two; cheap, reliable, fast
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby ChrisElliott72 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:31 pm

Scooterotica couldn't do it as they are tied up with Scootering magazine and didn't want to promise anything so put me in touch with a few other reputable dyno people and its now down at Chiselspeed who are going to have a poke about and see whether they can get the extra HP I'm after.
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Re: 200 4T with 221cc kit

Postby VCS » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:44 pm

VCS wrote:We´re working on the 2 valve retainers (replacing them), probably that´s the reason for traces of too much oil on the combustion chamber.
I haven´t decided yet what´s next.

1) staying with the cylinder 69mm + new polini piston (150Eur ; apparently, Polini does not sell piston rings) ;
2) return to the original cylinder + original piston = stock 200;
3) staying with the cylinder 69mm + new piston that fit there (not the polini or LML)

Anybody has an idea of which (good!) motorbike piston with 69mm could fit in the 200 cylinder ? I can´t find anything about it.


We discovered a small fissure in the engine head, next to one of the valves (engine with 7000kms). Maybe (?) this is the reason why we have too much oil on the combustion chamber. We replaced the engine head and set up the carb properly. A Ram Air filter was mounted too. No other changes.
It has been running well for 1500kms now.
Top speed has increased to +-110kms/h and clearly we gained some rpm at the top of the range.

Oro wrote:head is THE bottleneck , valves needs to open longer . Cylinder alone is wasted money .


Agree.
As far as i know no one builds a different head for the 200 4T.
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